Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: sarawnw on February 08, 2008, 03:02:48 PM
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Hi
Never Posted before, just a reader
I have a Field Marshall 12/2 listeriod that I can't get running. The problem appears to be lack of fuel since the injector pumps are not "creaking" or buzzing as typical. The engine did start with the fuel left from the "tear in" testing conducted in India at the factory. I know what the injectors should sound like from this brief running of the engine. During the disassembly and cleaning as per UtterPower CD, I flushed the fuel lines of all fuel using compressed air and kerosene. I left the injector pumps alone since I did not want to get into that until absolutely necessary. This includes injector pump cam shaft since the engine was clean for the most part. After reassembly, there is lots of compression, oil pump works great, better than when I received it.
On to the specifics to the problem and questions
I am using the red diesel fuel so a difference can be seen between the india fuel and the new fuel. The original factory fuel tank is full of fuel and in original factory location, red fuel flows slowly out of the fuel filter bleeder screw, also out of the banjo fittings that are attached the IP casing when loosened up. Taking the injector fuel line off the top of the IP and removing the IP nut and spring, I lifted up the "valve piece" as per the priming procedure. Old fuel , then air bubble and then red fuel flowed slowly from the IP. Both IP's worked the same way. Replacing the IP valve piece, spring and nut, then turning the fly wheels with the start handle, very small drop pushes up out of the top of the IP. Both IP's operate the same. Is this normal? I should have looked at this before the cleaning but who knew? I would expect a squirt to shoot out of the top of the IP. There is a very small crack heard but not nearly as load as originally heard.
Other factors that may be at work, I live in New York State and it is winter here currently. I replaced the original fuel filter for the smaller rocky mountain power source filter from Eric since I will be using SVO and wanted faster change over between dino and SVO.
So what did I do wrong? Any suggestions, comments, questions or jokes would greatly be appreciated.
Thank you in advance for a great forum and any help that you can provide.
Sara
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Hotaters post
"Here's all I know about it-------
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We've all done it, and we've have had success at it, but we've probably done it 'differently'.
Let's talk about the 'spill timing' of the injector pump tappet.
I've had problems in the past with the tappet itself and had to make a new one at about 6000 hours. The symptoms of that were SO weird it took weeks to track it down to the tappet which had become 'self-adjusting' through worn out thread that would jump back and forth. I'll write that up separately.
Here's how Ive *finally* learned to do it.
"EXPERIENCE" Recognizing a mistake when you make it again.
It's handy to have a fuel supply shut-off with in reach. Also have a bucket and a pile of rags or paper towels to fill it with once they're soaked with fuel. Bleeding the fuel system is about as messy as bleeding a hog.
My parts book doesn't have the nomenclature of the fuel pump parts. I'm going to use 'metering valve', 'spring' and 'cap' for the three parts that comes off when loosened at the top. The 'spring' can be an escape artist.
Fuel lines have residual 'talcum' in them that prevents 'wetting' immediately. That's where the little bubbles come from. Fill a length of fuel hose with fuel and 'waller it around' (Southern descriptive term of twisting, turning, and flexing) Cap the ends with screws or thumbs. Slap it around some and allow the fuel to 'pre-wet' the line.
SET-UP--
From hard experience, FIRST check and then re-check and then *certify* the cam is in time with the engine. Don't assume the Indians did it right. And don't assume *you* did either!
Watch the intake tappet..it should start to lift at 5 deg. before TDC. Thats' about an inch BTDC on the rim of most 6-1 flywheels.
For this discussion I'm going to assume the engine is set up to run with oil in the crankcase, gib keys tight and flywheels 'rung' for soundness AND marked for Top Dead Center (TDC) with something easy to see.
Mark TDC on the outer AND inner rim of the flywheel so you know where it is when it's otherwise out of sight.
Measure the circumference of the flywheel and divide by 18. that's 20 degrees. Measure and mark 20 BEFORE TDC on the fly wheel. The mark will be to the 'right' of the TDC mark.
I use the throttle pivot bolt head as a reference point because it's close and handy and seems 'natural'. It's also the most dangerous one place on a Listeroid....it's a finger trap that will complicate your life. Watch out.
I use metal stamps to mark TDC and injector timing mark once I *know* it was right. I STRONGLY suggest using metal marking paint or other heavy duty, but not permanent marks to start with. It's astounding how easy it is to screw this job up!
GETTING STARTED--
Take the cap, spring and metering valve off the top of the fuel pump and loosen the banjo. Turn on the fuel and thump the lines until the fuel pouring out of the banjo is bubble-free. Tighten the banjo bolt and turn off the fuel so you can clean up what missed the rags placed to catch it. (gravity has a 'windage factor' when it comes to fuel.)
Remove the metering valve and it's spring, but put the cap back on. This is IMPORTANT. Without the cap in the innards aren't lined up right.
Now there's probably a 'mound' of fuel sitting on top of the that cap. Wipe it off until there's just a puddle in the middle. With the exhaust valve lifted and the fuel turned off at the tank but the throttle bar 'on' (down), rotate the flywheel clockwise, slowly and watch that fuel puddle. The puddle is responding to a plunger in the pump that's run by the fuel pump tappet underneath, which is lifted by the cam lobe.
GET THIS STRAIGHT-- the cam lobe only comes around once every TWO revolutions. The cam is half speed of the crank.
Rotate until the fuel puddle rises up and stop. Where is the TDC mark?
If the TDC mark is to the *left* when the fuel wells up you are *advanced* That's good. We want it 20 degrees advanced. Time to fine tune it.
If the TDC mark is to the *right* it means it's retarded and the tappet should be lowered about six full turns and try it again. Get it roughly 'advanced' and then go on to the next step.
TAPPET ADJUSTMENTS--
The tappet head and lock nut are about 7/8" and can be a tipping point for claustaphobics. I've found two little six inch Crescent (style) wrenches that will open up that far and are a life saver!
Turn on the fuel and rock the flywheel to the left until the fuel wells up and overflows the valve cap to replenish the fuel supply for timing and then turn off the fuel supply again.
Now, with the TDC mark at about nine O'clock and the correct TDC is the one coming up, (give the engine several revolutions to be sure where you are).
The fuel in the top of the metering valve cap should be stable as the flywheel is SLOWLY moved clockwise, but suddenly *begin* to rise up just as the 20 BTDC mark gets to the index. It's easy to rock the flywheel back and forth through this spot and adjust the tappet to make it sho-nuff right. It's MUCH easier to lower the tappet to make adjustments to it. It's hard to keep track of where you are when doing it, though. Expect to do a lot of flywheel turning. When the tappet is in the best position to adjust it the danged counterweights are in the way!
IMPORTANT--
The tappet CHANGES when the locking nut is tightened. BE sure the final timing check is with the locking nut tightened.
TESTING--
Now that the timing is set it's time to see how it changes...and it can.
Turn on the fuel supply, wrap a rag around the fuel pump and crank the engine through a dozen 'firing' strokes, but with the valve still lifted, and watch the top of the pump. There'll probably be a few bubbles at first then it'll settle down to making a mess with nothing but fuel. SLowly rotate the flywheel around and check the fuel spill in relation to the timing mark again. Still good?
Good.
FINISH--
Re-install the metering valve and it's spring and tighten the cap. Be sure all surfaces are clean before tightening. Rotate the engine through several times with the fuel valve 'on'. It should squirt fuel and a few bubbles at first, but clear up after half a dozen firings.
Now attach the high pressure line at the bottom but leave the top undone from the injector. Line everything up so the bottom is tight in the final position but the top is about a quarter inch from the injector.
Here's the place where an energetic kid is really handy...as long as you don't have to feed him.
Crank the engine until fuel spurts from the end of the high pressure line. At first (just after the coronary starts, usually), there'll be bubbles in the fuel. Rap the line with something to break them loose faster and keep turning (or urging on the urchin) until the spurt is clear fuel.
WHILE STILL TURNING, tighten the top connector to the fuel injector. You should hear the odd mettalic cricket of the injector firing after about no more than more four turns of the crank.
IF you still have the energy to release the valve lifter after the third 'tink' you should be rewarded with smoke and the SWEETEST noise....
If not---- Just stop and try to figure out where YOU went wrong.
Cam timing is the FIRST step in trouble-shooting!!!!
If you hear the injector AND you have compression AND the engine doesn't start. The TIMING is off. PERIOD.
Report to moderator Logged
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7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,"
All I can add is make sure the rack is full open in the above directions!
Dave
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Yes, that one definitely makes hotater's greatest-hits list.
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Thank you Dave
I'll have some thing to do this weekend.
sara
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Hi Jens
The amount of fuel that comes out of the top of the IP is small and does not shoot up like standard car fuel injector system. The fuel pushes up some and drops over the edge of the high pressure line fitting at the top of the IP. It really doesn't matter how fast you spin the fly wheel. If I spin it fast, its hard to see a small burst of fuel, if there is one :P
Does amount of fuel coming out if the IP sound right? and yes the fuel lever is on.
I did not want to bleed the high pressure lines until I knew the IP was working right first.
The best diet I know is to crank over this engine ;D
thank you for your interest and help
sara
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Very little fuel will come out of the ip. I suggest you continue to tighten up the hp line to the ip ,clear the line of air, reconnect to the injector and listen for the clunk.
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If your engine has the braided steel flexible lines junk them and get some good American fuel line. Grind the ferules off of the end fittings and you'll have a hose barb on the banjos that is reuseable. The braided lines cause nothing but grief. Our fuel causes them to swell internally, choking off the fuel, many times gradually over time so that the inclination is that something else is wrong. If you've got the flexible braided lines you WILL have problems with them.
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Hi Jens
The amount of fuel that comes out of the top of the IP is small and does not shoot up like standard car fuel injector system. The fuel pushes up some and drops over the edge of the high pressure line fitting at the top of the IP. It really doesn't matter how fast you spin the fly wheel. If I spin it fast, its hard to see a small burst of fuel, if there is one :P
Does amount of fuel coming out if the IP sound right? and yes the fuel lever is on.
I did not want to bleed the high pressure lines until I knew the IP was working right first.
The best diet I know is to crank over this engine ;D
thank you for your interest and help
sara
It sounds like youre almost there.There will not be much fuel coming out of the pump. Close that one and move onto the next. I've found the one at the injector sometimes needs to be opened and closed 2 or three times before the air is gone enough to get the injector 'creaking'
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In my case, I used an outboard boat engine gas tank with the squeeze bulb in the fuel line. I was able to prime the filter assy and lines right up to the injection pumps with just a couple of squeezes. I then loosened the "B" nut on the injector itself and cranked the engine over while squeezing the bulb like crazy. It primed in a couple of minutes. Been great ever since.
Chris
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Taking the injector fuel line off the top of the IP and removing the IP nut and spring, I lifted up the "valve piece" as per the priming procedure. Old fuel , then air bubble and then red fuel flowed slowly from the IP. Both IP's worked the same way. Replacing the IP valve piece, spring and nut, then turning the fly wheels with the start handle, very small drop pushes up out of the top of the IP. Both IP's operate the same. Is this normal?
With that valve out and the pump in the the correct position, the fuel should come out fairly rapidly. I'm wondering if you may have some fuel gelling/filter restriction going on. Where in NY are you? Here in the lower Adirondacks, it's been months since I could get away with using untreated red diesel. Bill
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All I did was loosen fittings starting at the fuel filter and worked my way to the injector. Cranked,heard the 'creak',Hit the decompression lever,and off it went! 8)
Now the real problem! I dont know how people on this site manage to get 2 wrenches in that space to adjust pump timing,unless they got thin wrenches that are bent to a certain angle. so this is what I have decided to do:
I am going to remove the pump and advance the the timing to far ahead deliberately. Then I am going to install shims to lift the pump back up,so that timing is set back.
I will then be able to remove or replace shims until timing is properly set. ;D
This is much easier than trying to get in there with wrenches! ???
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Chris...were you talking about something like this?
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj219/magikbus/fueltank.jpg)
Stan
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I found the Duetz dealer had banjo fittings that you could easily adapt or you can replace the works with a #2 or #4 JIC fittings.
All the banjo bolts and hoses can be converted to JIC very easy.
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Hi All,
Good news, both IP's creak or tink as load as before. what a sound to behold. thank you all for your help ;D.
The engine puffed white smoke when I closed the exhaust valve and still cranking on the handle. Being in upstate NY and the temperatures below freezing, I didn't get the engne started. The engine is in an unheated, uninsulated barn, sound familiar ;)
I tried heating the injectors with a propane torch so they were warm to t he touch, without success.
BioBill, I think you might have this problem solved, please tell us how you start a riod in environments were H2O prefers to be a solid ;D.
Should I start a new post for this
thank you all again for your help
sara
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Sara,
Glow plugs. Don't know if your twin has CO valves but more likely there are plugs with large square heads filling the holes on the back side of the head (opposite the intake and exhaust ports). These can be machined to accept a glowplug which positions it right in the injector stream. If the fuel is liquid enough to pump, it WILL fire. You might find ready to go glow plug assemblies. I'll PM a possibility. In my opinion it's nice to have unmodified plugs to put back in when the weather gets warm so as not to interfere with the injection pattern. Bill
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Sara....There has been some discussion on the forum of running a small propane flame into the intake manifold (without any sort of filter on it) while cranking it over. On a 12/2 it might take another set of hands to do but the heated air entering the combustion chamber seems to do the trick. I've never tried it but it has been suggested before.
sTan
It's a lot simpler and quicker than machining glowplugs in and you don't have to provide power to a small propane torch.
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Ditto what Stan said. You're probably dying to hear the thing run. I've never tried the torch in the intake but I have heated up the head, high pressure line, and injector with a torch when some knuckle head(me) killed the battery for the glowplug. Get it warm and it'll run.
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Sara:
This is a proto type part that never went any place.
It uses a Duetz glow plug in my own custom built intake.
http://www.putfile.com/pic/4924461
If that doesn't provide enough heat to start a cold engine then a shot of WD40 or something similar while cranking with it on will ignite in the intake and the fire ball will be drawn into the engine.
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Sounds like a plan Doug, but Sara DON'T EVER USE ETHER in a diesel engine. Bad Dobby!
Stan
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I have used a hot air paint stripper down the air intake manifold before and it worked. Bit of heat on the hp line as well would help.
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Hi All,
It's been very cold here the last few days and I have been taken away from pleasure by the life's demands. Maybe this weekend I can get back to it
The glow plug on the intake is a great idea and will end up happening. Having 12volts with unlimited current source is as near as the closest car. Some times a car is hard to get into places if you have not designed for it I guess. In the meantime, the propane torch sounds like the way to go. My brother agreed to come over and hold the torch and run the exhaust release.
I have tried using the hair dryer in the air intake with exhaust and intake valves open to warn the head and cylinder. It takes several hours to get the top of the head to feel warmer than the fly wheel. That's warmer than 15F which should be relatively easy to do, unless I have some thing wrong in my reasoning. Thermal conductivity in iron is pretty high and very apparent in cold weather. The hot air paint stripper may be more fruitful.
I have read about the ether and diesel engines being non ideal partners but what about WD-40, that is ok in moderation?
Thanks for your help from all and I'll advise you of the status this weekend
sara
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Hi Sara.....I don't know about WD - 40, never touch the stuff. I'm always leery of spraying anything into an internal combustion engine that has a higher burn rate than what's supposed to be sprayed in there.
There is another danger to watch out for though! My daughter is a registered nurse and worked for 4 years in the Vancouver General Hospital Burn unit. She saw many bad burns (I even saw one when visiting my aged mother there, yuch!) caused by spray can voletiles igniting when they shouldn't have.
True, usually they occured right after that famous line "hey, hold my beer and watch this" but anything sprayed fine enough has the potential to backfire and burn all the skin off your face. Not a pretty thought, and not a pretty sight either. (they don't cover it up nowadays and when you meet one of them wandering the halls it's enough to giver you nightmares for weeks).
Stan
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Must admit ive done the hairspray and lighter thing in the way distant past ::). When starting my engine with the help of the paint stripper i didn't wait until the head was warm. I just left it running in place while i started the engine and removed it once it was running.
And Sara, don't forget that once your engine is running the most important thing to do next is make Tea with the power.
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That reminds me of the story of the guy who went out and bought $10,000 worth of the most up to date digital camera and lenses, took a trip to Africa with the sole idea of taking the most perfect picture ever taken, came back and bought a $7,000 computer with every feature known to man to process his photo. Spent weeks digitally processing his images, picked the best one of the thousands he took, and made a screen saver out of it. :-[
Stan
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Iam English, you just don't understand how important Tea is.
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Oy...1973, On a day tour from London to see Stonehenge, we stopped off at an Inn (I think it was called the white horse inn or something like that), they didn't have coffee, I actually drank a cup of tea!
Stan
Didn't see any Listers that I remember.
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I tried coffee once. I put some coffee beans in a teapot, poured boiling water on them and waited for them to brew. I think i got it wrong somewhere because nothing happened so i went back to drinking tea. :)
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Coffee from Tim's on the ride into the mine....
Tea with lunch....
Expreso at tea time or more tea depending on the mood and urgency of any later work
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Sorry Jens, I thought it was alright to tell everyone about your other hobby ;D
Stan
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Patience Sara...one more photo story, first---
I worked for a lawyer last year that is REALLY into digital photography. The Court Reporter ask him during a break when he was showing his Ft. Churchill Polar bear pictures if he considered himself a 'professional photographer'. He said, "No, a professional photographer can't afford my equipment."
Sara--
I feel for you cranking a twin in cold weather. The problem is that you're not sure its 'right' to begin with and the cold adds a lot of uncertainty to it. Cold affects parts, fuel, viscosities, and patience in about equal amounts.
You say you get white puffs but no ignition? How many puffs before the cardio alarms ring? If you say more than two you either have low compression or you're Paul Bunyon's lost child. ;)
If you have change-over valves, make sure they're on high compression and TIGHT there.
There's two ways of making it light.....warm it up by glow plug or hot intake temperatures, or reduce the temperature needed to light the fuel by an 'augmented fuel' in the the form of ether or WD-40 or LPS or CRP.
Ether was my preferred choice, but I never had to deal with much below 30 degrees because I had natural heat in the engine shed.
To use ether in a SINGLE (I've never seen a twin), I sprayed as little as I could from about 18 inches away at the air intake cleaner. I did NOT use it straight down the throat. I always cranked until I got three creaks of the injector and then pulled the valve lifter.
I figured it this way: By prewetting the cylinder and going through three intakes of 'ether-air' before having compression to fire assured the best mixture of the fuel and ether and precluded a 'slug' of ether in a dry cylinder.
It took having a head gasket blow out pretty much directly in my left ear on the first firing stroke that convinced me 'too much' is not a good thing. :o