Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: draganof on January 07, 2008, 01:59:21 AM
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
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It goes through an FG1000 Racor and then to a Cat 2 micron fuel filter. All of the WMO I get is from controlled sources and I have the lab test results so I know exactly what is in the oil. Some oil I get is so clean it looks almost new. I would like to get a large storage tank and keep it heated so the moisture content would remain low.
John
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There are thousands of emergency standby generators in Washington State. Some of these sites must pay to have their WMO disposed of. I have sources that donate their oil to me. I don't even charge them for it!
The answer to would I use oil that is of unknown quality? Only during WTSHTF times. But then any oil will be like gold.
I will say this. If I found a source of WVO I would not use WMO. And I would not make BioDiesel out of it. I would filter it and use it as is.
John
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
I have used wmo in my engine up to 50%. At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking, no corosion and no cylinder damage.
I run my wmo through a dieselcraft centrifuge filter. I do run it a lot longer than necessary, about three hours for around 7 gallons. I process about 7 gallons at a time. I am still running my original Goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter on the engine. I check the PH by taking a little oil and adding some distilled water and shaking it up and let it settle, I then check it with litmus paper. I bring down the PH by adding some Sodium Hydroxide and water and letting it recirculate. Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
I have had no problems so far.
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Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
That's lye in my book ! USA grocery stores carry granular Red Devil Lye, in the same locations as liquid Draino, at half the price.
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Mike,
You can still buy Red Devil Lye? It's off the shelves in my area (upstate NY) presumably because it's used in meth labs. However you can still get all the Na02 you want at chemical supply houses with no signature or anything. Your government at work >:( Bill
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Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
That's lye in my book ! USA grocery stores carry granular Red Devil Lye, in the same locations as liquid Draino, at half the price.
Not recently. I used to use it for something else but they don't carry it any more. Something to do with national security LOL. You can still buy it in large quantities though DAHHHH????
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
I have used wmo in my engine up to 50%. At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking, no corosion and no cylinder damage.
I run my wmo through a dieselcraft centrifuge filter. I do run it a lot longer than necessary, about three hours for around 7 gallons. I process about 7 gallons at a time. I am still running my original Goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter on the engine. I check the PH by taking a little oil and adding some distilled water and shaking it up and let it settle, I then check it with litmus paper. I bring down the PH by adding some Sodium Hydroxide and water and letting it recirculate. Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
I have had no problems so far.
I forgot to mention that I found some white powder up in the combustion chamber around the injector. Does anybody know what that is from?
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At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking
I forgot to mention that I found some white powder up in the combustion chamber around the injector. Does anybody know what that is from?
coke or hash ?
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
I have used wmo in my engine up to 50%. At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking, no corosion and no cylinder damage.
I run my wmo through a dieselcraft centrifuge filter. I do run it a lot longer than necessary, about three hours for around 7 gallons. I process about 7 gallons at a time. I am still running my original Goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter on the engine. I check the PH by taking a little oil and adding some distilled water and shaking it up and let it settle, I then check it with litmus paper. I bring down the PH by adding some Sodium Hydroxide and water and letting it recirculate. Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
I have had no problems so far.
I am a little confused on why you would adjust the ph in WMO? Adding lye to the oil doesn't seem right to me. And also where do you get litmus paper for WMO?
John
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I am a little confused on why you would adjust the ph in WMO? Adding lye to the oil doesn't seem right to me. And also where do you get litmus paper for WMO?
I think he adds only water for testing, and if it's too acidic, adds both Water & Lye for adjusting and , and uses ordinary everyday litmus paper to test the water. When the water tests fine, he de-waters the fuel. At least that's how I'm understanding his process. WMO tends to acidify while it's in use in the engine (combustion byproducts)
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Anyone ever try this trick to clean oil for burning?
I went snooping around for some rope just so I could try it myself....
http://www.endtimesreport.com/cleaning_engine_oil.html
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What he's describing is a common application of the organic chemistry laboratory called water extraction. Â Same idea as bubble washing your biodiesel to get rid of the excess methoxide, or free sodium hydroxide and methanol. Â Sodium hydroxide (lye) isn't soluble in oils, but it dissolves readily in water. Â Any acidic component of WMO such as acidic combustion byproducts will dissolve in the water in preference to the oil. Â So by circulating water containing a base or a buffering agent like sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in contact with the oil, you'll trap and neutralize the acidic "bad guys" from the waste oil. Â The water can be separated, unless you created an emulsion by mixing too vigorously, and discarded, leaving you with WMO that has had its acidic components removed.
Not to pick nits, but you add acid to bring the pH down, and bases like lye to raise the pH. Â I think he meant to say that if the water sample in the initial test indicated acid was present, then adding sodium hydroxide to the wash water would bring the pH up, not down.
Quinn
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Anyone ever try this trick to clean oil for burning?
I went snooping around for some rope just so I could try it myself....
http://www.endtimesreport.com/cleaning_engine_oil.html
I have used capilary action/siphon to remove liquid from not so easy to access spaces and places where it collects instead of dropping to a deck drain. A rolled up paper towel or napkin will do this same thing, although using a cellulose material will absorb any water present and may impede the oil transfer if the fibers become waterlogged. Cotton would move the water along with the oil and like moving any oil, this process will probably go faster if the oil is warm.
Ron
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
I have used wmo in my engine up to 50%. At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking, no corosion and no cylinder damage.
I run my wmo through a dieselcraft centrifuge filter. I do run it a lot longer than necessary, about three hours for around 7 gallons. I process about 7 gallons at a time. I am still running my original Goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter on the engine. I check the PH by taking a little oil and adding some distilled water and shaking it up and let it settle, I then check it with litmus paper. I bring down the PH by adding some Sodium Hydroxide and water and letting it recirculate. Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
I have had no problems so far.
I am a little confused on why you would adjust the ph in WMO? Adding lye to the oil doesn't seem right to me. And also where do you get litmus paper for WMO?
John
Waste oil is usually acid. The Sodium Hydroxide is base to counter the acid.
The litmus is plane litmus. I got the Litmus Paper through the Internet. The prices vary a lot but I got mine for 99 cents for 100 sheets. I tear a sheet in half to get two tests per sheet.
I add some water to a sample of oil. The acid collects in the water. When it settles I take some water off the bottom and test that with the litmus. To get the water off the bottom I use one of those bottles that have the pull up top like water bottles. After adding the water and oil I set the bottle upside down for ten minutes. Then keeping the bottle upside down I open the top over a bowl for just a second to get a few drops to test.
I mix the lye with water because the lye doesn't dissolve in oil. Once it is desolved, the water will evaporate leaving the lye. Just enough water to dissolve it is all it takes. I use a stainless steel container to dissolve it in because it gets really hot when you have a lot of lye and a little water and will melt plastic or break glass.
I add an once or two at a time. If I get too much I add some more waste oil.
SODIUM HYDROXIDE (LYE) IS DANGEROUS, IT WILL BURN HOLES IN YOUR SKIN, BLIND YOU AND PERMANENTLY DISFIGURE YOUR FACE TO THE POINT YOU NEED PLASTIC SURGERY.
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been gone for the last week and found this an interesting thread :)
it stands to reason that one should be able to get more power out of waste motor oil than diesel
all things being equal (lb for lb)
diesel has around 135kbtu and motor oil around 200k btu
now in order for the 195 to make more power burning the waste motor oil it has to burn the same weight of oil as diesel
i don't have a problem with that.
what i am wondering is, what is the limiting factor on the 195's hp rating?
i suspect it is the cooling system, being hopper cooled it can only produce so much hp before it boils too hard
and consumes a lot more water,, afterall there are two ratings on the engines ~8.8 continuous and a one hour rating of ~9.8kwatt
the 195 having a pressure fed bottom end it would appear that the bottom end is not the limiting factor,
so my thinking is the limiting factor is the cooling system
delete the water tank and install a blockoff plate, tstat and pump and my bet is the little engine is good for a fair bit more than
the 8.8 kwatt continuous,, maybe it will do 10 or 12 kwatt continous.
the old 71 and 92 series detroits could be made to make a bunch more power if you could provide enough cooling
i have seen them on fracturing pumps producing twice their common hp ratings but
the radiators and fans were very large.. so it is apparent that they were not bottom end limited but rather cooling system limited when it
came to hp production,, likey this is the case for all most all diesels.
i would be interested in seeing some solid testing of the 195 so as to document it peak power production, with good cooling, a good
intake and exhaust system, and maybe some tweaking to the injectors an timing.
might be interesting?
:)
bob g
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Here is my latest test using 50% Diesel and 50% DELO 40w. I was actually able to pull 10kw but couldn't control the water temp. I'm using a 3208 radiator with and electric fan. The radiator has 1.5" hose on the outlet and 1.250 on the inlet. The air intake starts out at 2.0" and grows to 5" at the air cleaner ( two 3126 in series). The exhaust starts out at 2.0" dumps into a 6" inlet and 6" outlet Nelson Residential Muffler ( 5' x 18") with 30' of 6" stack. There was plenty of rack left but at 12kw it smoked like a coal fired boiler in Steel town and the radiator was ejecting coolant like a fire hose. It would be interesting to add a water pump and turbocharger to see what it would pull. I have a feeling it would do 15-20kw. I'm wondering if the head gasket could stand the pressure. Oh that was with 2000 rpm on the engine and 1800 rpm at the head. I am currently running the engine at 1625 rpm and 1800 rpm at the head. This gives me a maximum of 6kw with lots of smoke but it is so quiet at this speed the sacrifice is worth it for now. The pulleys are 3 sheave using B series belts. Maybe come summer I'll dig up a water pump and install a turbo.
John
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A short update on running a 195 at 1625 rpm. I ran it 5 hours last night at 5kw and all seemed fine when I shut it down. This afternoon I did the normal check the oil and coolant start it up for a short warm up and then 2.5kw for 30 minutes and then 5kw. Well I ran it for 2 hours and then shut it down for the evening and noticed a small puddle of oil under the dipstick. Oil level is good but I seem to have some higher than usual blow by. I think I have a carbon build up issue at the reduced rpm. I'll change the oil tomorrow and change the pulleys back and run the engine at 2000 rpm and see if the crankcase pressure goes down. I have a feeling it will. This is not a slow speed engine and here I am trying to make it one.
John
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when are you going to add the first stage of nitrous? :)
i suspect the little engine will do much better with a water pump, lets face it even a cat will
blow water if you take the water pump out of play, hard to thermosyphon when you are pulling this level of power
out of it.
me, i would be thrilled to get the 8.8 kwatt rating (mechanical) output as electrical, and i think the engine can do it
with a water pump and radiator without issues.
interesting tests, at some point though i would expect some sort or mechanical issue
hopefully not cast iron hemmorage :(
i also wonder about a controlled breakin procedure, closely monitoring the crankcase pressure
you are certainly familiar with that process,, load it till the crankcase pressure starts to rise, reduce load and run for a determined
amount of time, increase loading again and watch for pressure rise,, etc until you get to peak loading without an undue rise in crankcase pressure.
blah blah blah
this is probably very important on an engine one is trying to get max output out of and get it to live as well.
pretty cool!
bob g
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Funny you should mention Nitrous. I have two 40lb bottles here in the garage along with Helium, Hydrogen and various other oxidizers and rocket fuels. My two sons are at the U/W. The oldest one is an Aeronautical/Astronautical Engineer/Physicist and the youngest is a Physicist. A family of rocket scientists we is. They keep asking me when I'm going to plumb in the Nitrous! I guess if I ever want to launch the Changfa it would be rather easy. ::)
John
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one of the coolest things i ever saw in regard to nitrous and a diesel engine
was at seattle international raceway about 5 or 6 years ago
a couple of old dudes brought a single axle Kenworth with a twin turbo 8v71 detroit with an mt40 allison 5 speed with two 120lb
nitrous bottles.
super single rear tires capped as slicks
ran low 11's in the quarter in exhibition
pretty cool, not a top fuel dragster, but it got all us diesel mechanics up off the bleachers :)
bob g
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Well learned a bit of a lesson today. Winter time, not pre-heating the WMO and 1625 rpm builds lots of carbon! Went down to the local Chevron and bought 5 gallons of clear highway diesel of high quality ( yeah right) filled up the tank and put a 5kw load on the engine. After 45 minutes the exhaust burns clean again and the base pressure has returned to normal. I am going to run on straight diesel only for now at the 1625 rpm. As much as I don't want to I may have to heat the fuel lines to run WMO if I want to stay at the slower engine speed. If that doesn't work then I'll go back to the rated 2000 rpm engine speed until summer. Right now I'm using this to heat my garage with a 5kw 240 volt heater.
John
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OK... What is a "Nelson Residential Muffler" Will it help me quiet my C-201 Isuzu Genset?
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OK... What is a "Nelson Residential Muffler" Will it help me quiet my C-201 Isuzu Genset?
here is the link for Nelson Mufflers http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/
it's basically a super quiet muffler made for residential generators
go to the exhaust-a-logue and you can download a pdf catalog. there are disrtributors here in the US
The one I have was special ordered for a customer about 5 years ago and not used after the customer canceled the job. It sat in a warehouse until last summer when it was sent to the scrap metal dumpster. I watched them carrying it over to the dumpster on a forklift and asked them to put it on the trailer behind my service truck instead. They didn't understand why I wanted such a big muffler. heh heh
John
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Thank You John
I'll check it out... Never heard of them before.
Rob
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I do know their mufflers are very expensive but I have never seen one rust out. I know plenty that have outlasted the engine they were installed on. Mine is regular steel but I have seen some polished stainless ones that had a mirror finish. They currently reside in a rather large mansion in Medina, Washington. The engine also has polished nickel valve covers, polished brass water lines etc. It is truly a wonder to be seen. But sadly the owner won't allow photos of any kind. The generator cost more than my entire house and property!
John
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Some of them are REALLLLY HUUUGE!.... Must be super quiet I'll bet.
Rob
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Mine has a quiet rumble that sounds like an engine running far off in the distance. Of course the stack points straight up and tops out at 30' Even before I put the stack on you could stand right next to it and hear the generator growling more than the exhaust. It's quiet.
John
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Mine has a quiet rumble that sounds like an engine running far off in the distance. Of course the stack points straight up and tops out at 30'Â Even before I put the stack on you could stand right next to it and hear the generator growling more than the exhaust. It's quiet.
John
Yeah mine is like that. You can stand beside it and talk in a normal voice. The noise is the valves and alternator. Nice chug from the exhaust but you have tio get within a couple of feet to hear the exhaust.
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Are these 'roids or the real thing ? .... I have eliminated the exhaust noise on my 'roid but it's still very noisy with a heavy diesel knock, some minor valoe train noise and a good whine from the generator head. I can't hear the engine if I am behind the house but the concept of running this setup at night is definitively a no-go. Constant running during the day would also get me in trouble with the neighbors.
Jens
Mine is a roid, but I doubt it makes any difference. I thiunk the expansion chamber makes a lot of difference. Also the expansion chamber being deadened by the dirt works pretty good too. Actual engine noise like the valves and alternator would probably take an engine cover of some sort or maybe some bushes between you and the neighbors.
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I thiunk the expansion chamber makes a lot of difference. Also the expansion chamber being deadened by the dirt works pretty good too. Actual engine noise like the valves and alternator would probably take an engine cover of some sort or maybe some bushes between you and the neighbors.
The expansion chamber helps with exhaust noise but does nothing about the characteristic diesel knock of the engine.
Jens
that will probably take an engine box or shed with insulation
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Just noticed a couple of errors early on in this thread where sodium hydroxide is mentioned for raising pH of WMO.
One poster said Drano was lye. It isn't Drano contains lye (which is sodium hydroxide in the States) but also contains salt, aluminum pellets and sodium nitrate.
Another poster says you can obtain "NaO" instead. The proper formula for sodium hydroxide is NaOH.
Lye is still available in bottles in Vermont at the hardware store, so it seems to more a matter of low demand these days than unavailability for any security reason..
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2000 rpm on the engine and 1800 rpm at the head. I am currently running the engine at 1625 rpm and 1800 rpm at the head. This gives me a maximum of 6kw with lots of smoke but it is so quiet at this speed the sacrifice is worth it for now. The pulleys are 3 sheave using B series belts. Maybe come summer I'll dig up a water pump and install a turbo.
John
Difficult to beat the simplicity and reliability of direct drive.
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Yeah mine is like that. You can stand beside it and talk in a normal voice. The noise is the valves and alternator. Nice chug from the exhaust but you have tio get within a couple of feet to hear the exhaust.
Any noise from the intake manifold/filter? Air compressor are notoriously noisy on the intake side.A diesel engine is little different.
I used to flip the breather lid over to hear all four barrels open up on a 350 Chev. What a howl. Used to imagine the noise was worth another 10-15HP.
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There are thousands of emergency standby generators in Washington State. Some of these sites must pay to have their WMO disposed of. I have sources that donate their oil to me. I don't even charge them for it!
The answer to would I use oil that is of unknown quality? Only during WTSHTF times. But then any oil will be like gold.
I will say this. If I found a source of WVO I would not use WMO. And I would not make BioDiesel out of it. I would filter it and use it as is.
John
I charge people $1 a gallon if they drop off small amounts. I don't make anything on that because not much comes that way but it does pay for oil changes, engine degreaser and grease. If they have a 55 gallon drum I pick it up for free. The best part is that unlike gasoline or even diesel fuel which eventually goes bad, WMO is forever. I have enough that it sets for a year before I even process it so there is already almost nothing in it. It has already settled to the bottom. Whenever I want some more, I just put a "WANTED" request on freecycle.
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I just did a 4 hour load test of my 195 with an ST10 on 15-40 WMO today. Nothing fancy, started on diesel and when the engine temp got to 185 degrees I changed over to WMO. No pre-heat. Oil temp was at 70 degrees. No smoke at all until I reached 9kw then it was a light gray up to 10kw where it started to turn black. The engine seemed to like it. Less noise. Engine temp at 10kw was 210 degrees. I switched back to diesel for 30 minutes prior to shutdown. I think the WMO makes more horsepower than diesel. On diesel the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 56.0 full load. On WMO the HZ is 62.5 unloaded and 59.3 full load. Not very scientific but educational for me.
John
As an update, I now use 100% wmo. It works fine down to 10 degrees F without starting it on diesel.
I have used wmo in my engine up to 50%. At almost 500 hours I had the head off and found little coking, no corosion and no cylinder damage.
I run my wmo through a dieselcraft centrifuge filter. I do run it a lot longer than necessary, about three hours for around 7 gallons. I process about 7 gallons at a time. I am still running my original Goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter on the engine. I check the PH by taking a little oil and adding some distilled water and shaking it up and let it settle, I then check it with litmus paper. I bring down the PH by adding some Sodium Hydroxide and water and letting it recirculate. Before I found a source of Sodium Hydroxide, I used draino.
I have had no problems so far.
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one of the coolest things i ever saw in regard to nitrous and a diesel engine
was at seattle international raceway about 5 or 6 years ago
a couple of old dudes brought a single axle Kenworth with a twin turbo 8v71 detroit with an mt40 allison 5 speed with two 120lb
nitrous bottles.
super single rear tires capped as slicks
ran low 11's in the quarter in exhibition
pretty cool, not a top fuel dragster, but it got all us diesel mechanics up off the bleachers :)
bob g
Shuckins, This is my kids school bus leaving the bus stop in the mornings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fgymQBwHIo
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I am a little confused on why you would adjust the ph in WMO? Adding lye to the oil doesn't seem right to me. And also where do you get litmus paper for WMO?
I think he adds only water for testing, and if it's too acidic, adds both Water & Lye for adjusting and , and uses ordinary everyday litmus paper to test the water. When the water tests fine, he de-waters the fuel. At least that's how I'm understanding his process. WMO tends to acidify while it's in use in the engine (combustion byproducts)
That is exactly correct
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Wow hard to believe how long it's been since this was posted. My 195 is still going strong. Anybody else still on here?