Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Petteroids => Topic started by: buickanddeere on November 26, 2007, 06:56:00 PM
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I just seen a 6HP or so original British built Petter AV1 with the Krislar name in the castings? It's complete, not bashed up and runs smooth under load without smoke. It was supposed to have been one of the last three new petters shipped into Ontario from England, so the story goes. It's been running a milking machine since the 1970's. Being upgraded by a Yanmar to run a larger milking machine and cooler with the convenience of electric start. $250.00 cash.
A Krislar Petter?
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Sounds like you have found a Kirloskar Petteroid.
The AV series Petter was manufactured under liscence from Petters Ltd in India by KOEL ( Kirloskar Oil Engines Limited ).
If it is an AV1 its probably a very close copy of the original
This is a link to an old Ebay auction of a TV1 and marks the beginning of the Petteroids as I understand.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180149370884
The DM 10 like my Petteroid seems to mark the end of the evolution of the type ( with a lot of borrowed ideas from the PJ and PHW engines that were never manufactured under liscence from Petter ).
The AV1 is considered an obscolete type by Lister Petter who proivide no parts of technical suport in Canada for it. However the Indians and KOEL in particualr still build it and parts are available.
Doug
Can you get pictures?
I don't understand how it came from England in the 70's with a Petter connection if it was made in India maybe Peter can provide some insight.
In the 70's KOEL seems to have introduced at least one engine into the North American market, the KA-27. They had a distributor but for what ever reason they didn't make any head way ( engines were probably not up to par ).
Peter also spoke in a posting about an Indian engine builder trying to sell engines in England based in Lister/Petter engines in the 70s ( and laughed out of trade shows ). This may explain how a KOEL engine ( if that is what this is ) came to Canada from England
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To answer Doug's question re the appearance of a Kirloskar engine in North America, I think that as soon as Petters/Hawker-Siddeley Group finished with Kirloskar, there would have been a fairly quick uptake on Kirloskar's part to see what marketing they could generate to sell engines. They were fairly switched on due to their involvement with Petters, and may well have had contacts with North American companies already through Petters etc.
A lot of engines from various European makers, including Diter in Spain, made their way over in small batches as part of various experimental deals.
There is a Petter DA engine with a guy who we know, Petter never sold any but he has one.
Peter
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There is a Petter DA engine with a guy who we know, Petter never sold any but he has one.
Peter
Now that sounds interesting what is a DA Petter?
Looking at your data sheets I only see reference to a DA2 with a build date of 68-69.
How does an engine that Petter never sold end up with a 1 year build run date?
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Sorry folks :-[ novice on the loose.
After taking a look at the old engines info site. It's obvious I know some about two cylinder Deere's but only enough to be dangerous around Petters. This Krislar looks like a water cooled 87.3 X 110 PH1W Petter. No rad or fan, it just thermosyphoned on a water tank.
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No matter, but I think in that case its actualy a PH1W ( W for water cooled ).
Did you buy it?
If not I would like it.
Check the injection pump. I think it should be a Bryce if its a real Petter. That should help clear up what it is.
Doug
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Bought her today, pick it up tomorrow with the tractor & loader. It's only four country blocks from where I live.To think I was going to purchase an engine from Jolly Old England and have it shipped over here. Now to find a place in the shed where I can show it to buddies but the wife won't be able to find it.
I tried starting it today sitting outside in 25F weather. While I warmed myself up cranking, the engine only made enough compression heat to blow white smoke out the exhaust, the engine's exhaust pipe.............
Suspected low compression as after getting her rolling decompressed. I could crank it continuously while under compression for 20-30 seconds until I was puffing louder than the Petter. Then again I'm currently soft and weak. My brother broke one of my legs last spring. And in late October a physician tried to kill me doing a biopsy. It took 5 units of blood to get my hemoglobin from 53 to just 100. 140-150 is normal.
I'm kind of surprised at the size and weight of the beastly Petter.
There has been a hub and keyed shaft welded (spattered) to the flywheel as a "farmer fix". It runs true enough and has stayed on there for for 3 decades.
The injection pump on there is a Bryce. Its either a new or freshly rebuilt unit. Model # FAOAB070C0177 and serial # YK11372. Does this make any sense? Not a hint of any other ID with the exception of Krislar in some of the castings.
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The engine has sat untouched since it was running in the shop a couple of weeks ago. I assume the fuel system is still primed and there was just not enough heat on the compression strokes to reach the diesel oil's ignition point. The shop was around 60F vs. 25F outside today.
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I might sneak the engine into the car garage tomorrow, put the heat on and blow the electric heatgun through the water ports to warm her up.And ensure the fuel tank is filled and the system primed.
When she's smoking, she's at least getting some fuel?
If need be, I wonder how to scare up an East Indian sleeve & piston?
I can see no sign of a aircleaner ever being on this engine. No muffler either, just dirty threads in the head's exhaust port. It's likely sucked water, dust, dirt and small animals/insects into the engine during it's previous life.
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I don't think a Brice pump would have been OEM on an Indian engine so could it be tht this was rebuilt using KOEL parts at one time?
If you need to rebuild it there is the slim chance my DM 10 parts might be close enough to a to PH1 to convert it.
I have plenty of parts if I can help ....
Doug
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I had grand plans of hauling the Krislar home today however the wife's Christmas reception overrode my plans.
This engine is one of three identical units imported together from Jolly OLd England. The injection pump was "borrowed" from one of it's sister's that had "blown up" ?
Without taking it apart this Krislar appears to be a an ordinary 3-7/16 X 4-1/3" bore PH1W Mark V Petter. With a round rather than a rectangular fuel tank. It appears the DM 10 parts should transplant.
If this engine comes apart the compression is going to be boosted to assist making higher temps during the compression stoke. The hopes are to raise the odds of cleaner, more reliable ignition while burning wvo and have higher thermal efficiency.
Doug I'll get some photos taken and sent your way soon. There were grand plans to visit you in Sudbury last September however the trip from Sue. Ste. Marie to Kincardine ran out of time..
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If you can salvage anything from the Blown up unit jump on it.
I'd like the Crank gear and Cam gear, front rear main bearing carriers head and IP side cover.....
You know what if you can track the blown up one I'll take it.
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The injection pump on there is a Bryce. Its either a new or freshly rebuilt unit. Model # FAOAB070C0177 and serial # YK11372. Does this make any sense?
See:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Bryce/Bryce3.htm
6th line down.
That pump is the later AVA series II pump.
Peter
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Hmmmmmmm. So according to the pump this is a " AVA Series II AVA2 3 to 10hp Diesel Compression 3200000 - on
3299999 1952 - 1967"
This engine has been well rustproofed with a surface layer of slobbered oil/fuel mixed with barn dust. Where is the most likely location to find the serial number plate if the milk cows haven't rubbed it off?
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Just guessing but the Bryce pump might fit a more than just the AV series II.
The Roids seem to have the same pump and injector over a wide range and these were the days when having too much fuel rack was only a problem if you let it run away.
Pictures would help then we could pin donw for sure exactly what you have there Buck.
Data plate should be on the rocker box I believe.
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterPH1W1.htm
This what it should look like
Again from Peter's website here is the series 1 AV1, notice the injector is straight and not angled this indicates its old. Since my PC crashed I lost a lot of pictures but the series II av1 should have a rocker box that looks like the PHW and the same angled injector ( for better cold starting ).
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterAV1.htm
I salvaged some more files.
The AV1 should have a data plate above the crank case cover on the oil filler/fliter side.
No PH or PJ pictures survived
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Very close to the PH1W but with a shorter aircleaner. Turns out there was an oil bath air cleaner on there after taking all the rags, bags and cloths off. The fuel filter is larger and lower centered in front of the injection pump. The fuel tank is a rounded ended cylinder with small smooth seams.
AV1 is a distant cousin at best.
Tonights plans to haul the Krislar home were fouled again................................ :'(
The #2 parts engine is in progress. And I'm also trying to find out which dump the #3 blown engine was hauled to.
I hope the engine was well drained or has some antifreeze in it.
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Just guessing but the Bryce pump might fit a more than just the AV series II.
Not in the UK it wouldn't. CAV and Bryce always maintained a pretty tight control on what pump fitted which engine, and pump numbers were not transferred/interchnageable between manufacturers either.
That is not to say they couldn't be used on another engine, just that it was not a practice carried on in the UK.
Within a fairly tight range, you could use a pump from one engine size on another, but so many factors are involved, especially the injector type and release pressure etc.
The other problem is the pump element helix, if that is the wrong way round then you'll get a runaway engine.
Peter
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Well I thank I got some pic's in to Copper Mine thay are under Tom T I thank the engine is a newer version butn in the same line It is now hocked up temp. but useable. Will put the spec's in later if it will let me. Tom T
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Very close to the PH1W but with a shorter aircleaner. Turns out there was an oil bath air cleaner on there after taking all the rags, bags and cloths off. The fuel filter is larger and lower centered in front of the injection pump. The fuel tank is a rounded ended cylinder with small smooth seams.
AV1 is a distant cousin at best.
Tonights plans to haul the Krislar home were fouled again................................ :'(
The #2 parts engine is in progress. And I'm also trying to find out which dump the #3 blown engine was hauled to.
I hope the engine was well drained or has some antifreeze in it.
So the fuel filter and the injection pump cover look like this ?
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=2974570
Let me know if you have left over parts when done...
We can make some sort of deal.
Doug
Thank you for the info on CAV pumps Peter.
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She's thawed out in the garage and dried off.
Just for the fun of it I grabbed the crank and noticed the engagement pawl was sticky so it was lubed up and worked freely. Looked for the the serial number plate (*^%^&&^$^*^ :'(. Looks like it had been on there for decades and then was freshly knocked off while the engine was lugged out of the barn or hauled to the shop within the past month or two at most.
There was a splash of diesel in the tank and some milkshake looking stuff in the crankcase after sitting outside for weeks. On a whim I gave her a whirl and much to my surprise there was a putt and snort then the d*m thing was running. No sign of oil flow up through that tube extending into the rocker arm compartment in 30 seconds so that might be an area of concern or not?
Had to shut of off for a few reasons. #1 No muffler and when not wearing hearing protection she was barking pretty loud. #2 I couldn't see anything in the 2-1/2 car garage that was 4ft or higher off the floor. Lots of black smoke when the governor was calling for fuel.And white smoke when the fuel rack was a zero delivery? Kids and wife were certain there was some sort of crisis in the garage. #3 Had to kick the starting crank off the cam shaft. It didn't slide off the shaft on it's own as expected.The swinging starting crank's off balance was starting to wobble the engine around in a worrisome manner.
The word Krislar is cast or stamped into every little piece of the engine. Tomorrow should provide some images.
I assume pulling the injector out will reveal some more part numbers? I'd like to spin her over and check the injector's spray pattern at the same time anyways. And to figure out which style/shape of the S injectors intended for A or B pumps she has.
Finding either of this engine's sisters is still in progress. Maybe there will be a serial number plate of the parts engine?
Many thanks for the links to the oldengines site with the Petter and Lister data. And to the person(s) who accumulated and posted the data there.
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Keep me posted.
Especialy if you find the other in any condition, we may be able to barter some parts.
DOug
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Doug or anybody
What do you know about acquiring one of those new Koel DM20's or TV2's in Ontario? And a matching ST generator head?
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You want an ST head you talk to John F or Pat ( ebay Altopro ).
John has ESA field inspected heads, not to be confused with CSA certified ( small dig John )
Pat's heads aren't inspected but he's a nice fellow too.
Both guys seem to be very fair and honest. I bought one from Pat and when it arrived here broken he sent me a replacement parts out of pocket even though his auction states all sales are final and no warrenty
There are no DM20's or TV2's in North America I am aware of with the exception of pair of TV1's in a crate in Origon state. I don't know much about them, only what I read on Ebay.
The ONLY product officialy sanctioned by Kirolskar oil engines limited for sale in Canada are the HA series and there is a fellow out your way who is a distributor. He can't or won't try anything else( came close but he decided not ), I also managed to talk to people at Kirolskar and they were not interested in selling their TV1 and TV2 even thought they were CEPA compliant ( think the DM and 1040 series were also ).
You want a DM 20 probably would have to buy a clone of it from India direct
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Dragged the Krislar/Petter out of a corner of the garage today, too many competing projects, work,computer time, kids to sports etc. Basement was flooded in Feb due to a frozen then burst pipe. Been busy fixing things up. It drowned the main computer with most of our jpegs too.
The engine is PH1W in appearance. The injector angles into the cylinder head on the opposite side of the engine from the injection pump. So it's not an early AV type.
As previously posted, the pump is a Bryce Model # FAOAB070C0177, serial # YK11372. It had been transplanted into the engine. So that could have been a donor from an AV series II or AVA series II but possibly from one of other identical parts engines in the area.
The injector is the Size S Long Stem 3 hole type with an A-SD type mount . The Old Engine Boch data says it's an ADB type.The injector holder data is "MICO * LIC. Bosch , 9430 031 258 , Made in India 629 ?
Where should I look for that Bosch clone data?
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I believe if you change the forst digist 9 to a 0 that wil solve your conversion delema
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I must be as blind and as stunned as my wife says I am :-[. I can't "see" anything with the numbers 430, 031 or 258 in a series anywhere on Bosch, Bryce or LAV ?
All I can tell it's a 97mm long S type with a three hole tip. A number 52 or 67. Not a pintle type.
Anybody know how the date code works? All I found reference to was a "letter" date code?
At least it's likely the engine is East Indian built. The condition/paint on the injector matched the rest of the engine exactly.
The bore is 3-7/16" and stroke 4.333" so she's some sort of a PH1W.
The missing compression was located. A made in England head gasket # 269116 measuring 50 thou thick with a 3.9950 bore was discovered sitting atop the 3-7/16 bore.
The valves have been cut back to a such a narrow margin that I could shave with the exhaust valve. Between grinding the valves and seats. The exhaust is sunk 74 thou and the intake 56 thou.
The water passages suggest that the coolant must have been dipped out of the cattle's water trough.
The bore looks decent with no scratches and only the most minor ridge at the top of the bore felt with the fingernails. If the soot was polished off the untraveled portion of the bore the piston could probably be pulled out the top if one wanted to.
I didn't check the block's cylinder wall thickness. Odds are it's safe to bore to the ASJ1 dia of 3-13/16. I've way overbored tractor engines then pressed in a dry/wet sleeve. I wonder if there is room for some of the Indian sizes of 102/4.01",114.3/4-1/2" or 120/4.72" ?
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The bore looks decent with no scratches and only the most minor ridge at the top of the bore felt with the fingernails. If the soot was polished off the untraveled portion of the bore the piston could probably be pulled out the top if one wanted to.
Nope Rod big end won't fit threw at least not on my 102 mm.
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It looks like the AV/AVA style 7mm Bryce pump could be an undersized substitute for this PH1W type engine? Installed by the local Amish tinkerer perhapes?
Either that or the Indians didn't use the 8mm pump until going to the 3-13/16" bore PJ sized engine?
I was thinking of using 10mm internals and limiting the rack travel. Injecting the same total amount of fuel as the 7mm or 8mm but over a reduced number of crankshaft rotation/piston travel. Deere did that with success on the 20 and 30 series two cylinder diesels and picked up some fuel efficiency and power.
Wish I could find some data on those MICO injector holder numbers.
Looks like I should find an importer who will be bringing a shipment from India? To add in a box of parts from Anand.
It's amazing to see how consticted the intake/exhaust passges are just below the valve seats and around the guides.
When it's apart I'm thinking of machining to get the piston closer to the head to raise the compression a notch.
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After cleaning the layers of dirt/soot off. It is a wet sleeve engine after all. At 1st glance I thought it was a sleeve-less investment cast block due to cost cutting by the East Indians.
No 4" or 4-1/2"bores unless the entire block/sleeve is swapped out.
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Hmmmmmm. Kids just remembered to tell me late today that yesterday. The guy with the other Petteroid/Krislar engines had dropped in during my absence and was wanting to sell them? Will have to check this situation out.
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Keep me posted I would like one if it can be arranged
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Supposed to go see the engines when this influenza plague ends around here.
Apparently the other two engines are Listers. One is an aircooled four cylinder engine and gen from some WWII era application. The Other Lister is a twin but details were vague. 3rd is the rebuilt shortblock which is the last remaining known parts from the other two Krislars? I hope there is a data plate on there.
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Keep me posted.....
I have the bug too.....
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Have the injection pump and injector finished.
Turns out I was thinking way wrong about the pump. It's only an A series with the 7mm stroke. And will accept a 6,7 or 8mm element. Corrected the pump by installing the 8mm element rather than the rusty crusty 7mm found inside.
The injector had the wrong tip and a weak spring. The tip was changed to the one used on the PJ series of Petters which works with the same 8mm pump used on both the PH and Pj's. The tip will be a little large for the PH unless we can cram a PJ's 3-13/16" bore piston into an overbored PH wet sleeve. Is so the rack travel will just have to be limited to prevent black smoke.
Valves and seats were a total write off. Somebody had went wild a couple of times grinding the seats deep. And the valves to a razor's edge. There are some new Manley Pro Flow small block chev valves laying around here. We plan on cutting a couple to fit.
I'm having a tough time convincing my machinist to cut that big ugly lump out of the intake port to make it match the exhaust port's shape.
The cam and followers going to be sent out to be trued up as well. The cost is surprisingly low.
12HP without excessive smoke at 1800rpm would be nearly enough to handle the 10KW generator project if we can swing the 3-13/16 bore.
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Your way out there still.
Keep me posted.
I still have injectors and pumps if you find you are in need.
Infact I have alot of things here if things don't work out as planned so don;t be afraid to ask
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That was a quick reply. Traffic has slowed down some around this site.
I hope the nickel market is still decent
I'm trying to remember the status of your engine? One running and some spare parts if memory serves? I wish schedules had worked last summer to pop by for a visit.
I'll admit pushing the envelop a bit with the engine but when in there anyways, why not. I"ll have to ease that sleeve out and measure the wall thickness.Perhaps the PD's 3-1/2" bore piston will be lots upsizing from the 3-7/16" ? It should fit as the PD also used the same 4-1/3" stroke as did the PJ.
The engine should breath better without that lump closing off 1/3 the intake port. It's not going to cost very much to run a ball mill or cutter down the port when already in the machine shop.
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I just seen a 6HP or so original British built Petter AV1 with the Krislar name in the castings? It's complete, not bashed up and runs smooth under load without smoke. It was supposed to have been one of the last three new petters shipped into Ontario from England, so the story goes. It's been running a milking machine since the 1970's. Being upgraded by a Yanmar to run a larger milking machine and cooler with the convenience of electric start. $250.00 cash.
A Krislar Petter?
There is one for sale on E Bay right now... eBay item:KIRLOSKAR DIESEL ENGINE, 1CYL, AIR COOLED MODEL TA1 NOS (#310085064573)
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This TA1 has been reslisted on Ebay so many times over the years its turning into a joke.
There were two one crated in good order the other smashed up a bit but functional
Not sure KRISLAR is a 1970s KOEL product. The firts KOEL engines I can track were sold under the KOEL brand name inthe 70s but they withdrew from the North American market. They were selling a HAZ type engine at the time