Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: draganof on February 23, 2007, 03:21:49 AM

Title: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 23, 2007, 03:21:49 AM
Well my experiment with running a 195 at 1200 rpm is over. This engine just wasn't meant to run at 1200 rpm. After 20 hours of running at 3.5 kw on diesel followed by 5 hours running on heated used engine oil the coking got so bad that the engine was starting to lose power. In the end the most usable kw without smoking heavily was only 1.5 kw This was cured by raising the rpm to 1800 and applying 6kw for 30 minutes. All the buildup is gone. Engine runs smoother at the higher rpm also. No smoke at all. Looks like I'll just keep this engine as a backup generator for the house and see if I can find one of those "true" slow speed diesels. Always did want a Lister from the beginning, just didn't want to spend that much money. Not sorry I bought the Changfa, one hell of a good engine. Just not a slow speed thumper. I'm thinking one of these might find its way into one of my Cubs!
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: JMW on February 23, 2007, 07:23:39 AM
Can you tell us how you were cooling your engine during these tests? One of the problems of running engines slower than designed is that they run too cool - something very bad for used engine oil fuel.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 23, 2007, 01:29:42 PM
Still running with the hopper. Coolant is 50-50 antifreeze. Temperature runs at 200-215. Injector line temp 200-220. I haven't totally given up on this yet, just discouraged. I'll give it a few days and then be back at it. I think one of the problems was the muffler was causing to much back pressure. Will install a much larger one this weekend.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on February 23, 2007, 09:37:06 PM
After the engine was coked up did yuo continue to burn the same WMO fuel in the cleanup run or did you switch to clear diesel?  Is your engine DI or IDI (pre cup)?
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 24, 2007, 02:05:31 PM
The 195 is a pre-cup engine. I had to flush the lines and filter and used new diesel for the cleanup run. I am installing a new larger no restriction muffler today and just may try the 1200 rpm run again. I haven't given up on the project totally. Just a little frustrated. I do have a new turbo sitting on the shelf and it may just find itself on the Changfa. Just not sure how a turbo would handle the slow speed pulses on one of these engines. Problem with adding a turbo is it's one more thing that can fail and the oil pump on the engine may not have enough volume to run a turbo and lube the engine. I am trying to keep everything simple and may ditch the duel inverter design and go with an ST head. The KISS principle is the logical way to power generation and in the end that is where I need this project to be. I will eventually get a Lister for off grid and the Changfa will make a nice backup generator for it. But that is a few years away so the Changfa is here to stay. I'll post more as time goes by.                                       
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 24, 2007, 02:06:56 PM
The 195 is a pre-cup engine. I had to flush the lines and filter and used new diesel for the cleanup run. I am installing a new larger no restriction muffler today and just may try the 1200 rpm run again. I haven't given up on the project totally. Just a little frustrated. I do have a new turbo sitting on the shelf and it may just find itself on the Changfa. Just not sure how a turbo would handle the slow speed pulses on one of these engines. Problem with adding a turbo is it's one more thing that can fail and the oil pump on the engine may not have enough volume to run a turbo and lube the engine. I am trying to keep everything simple and may ditch the duel inverter design and go with an ST head. The KISS principle is the logical way to power generation.                         
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on February 24, 2007, 02:17:15 PM
George`s website (utterpower.com) highlights a fellow in Quebec that put a turbo (from a VW 1.6 L 4 cyl diesel I think)  on a 6/1 Listeroid successfully.  That seems to imply that the pulse nature of the exhaust uis not as big a problem as one might think.

I have been experimenting with a smaller JD175 engine and have made a 100 watt nichrome injector heater.  I can get the injector up to 450F     This helps a lot  when trying to use extra thick oil as a fuel.  It has allowed me to use some new golden color oil that is almost as thick as liquid honey with no coking up problems but did not solve coking when using  used WTF filtered through a 10 u then 2 u filters.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 25, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
Houston we have a problem. Well I decided to install a new low restriction muffler today in place of the one I was using. it's 3" inlet and outlet. Nice and quiet and minimum back pressure. Started the engine and set the speed at 1200 rpm and put 3kw load on it. ran that way for about an hour until I heard the speed drop off. Sounded just like it was running out of fuel. Took off the load and shut it down. looked in the tank and almost dry. Filled it back up with off road diesel and bleed the system. Attempted to start the engine and it didn't sound so good. Sounded like it was running out of fuel. Shut it down and checked the oil. Hmmm, seems like I have to much oil. Not a lot mind you but more than it had. Did another start and managed to get it up to speed. This engine is sick. Sounds like I have an exhaust leak somewhere around the head to block mating surface and the engine has no power! Throttle response is almost nothing. Looks like I'll be tearing it down tomorrow and find out what happened. I'll let it sit overnight and see if the oil level continues to rise and /or the coolant level falls and ends up in the sump. I'll take an oil sample into our lab at work and find out if it's fuel dilution or coolant. Doesn't really matter which one the engine is effectively dead for now. Even if it turns out to be just a head gasket I'll take it down totally and check everything out. Until this happened it was a fun adventure, now it's not fun anymore. I'll post again after I find the problem.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on February 26, 2007, 01:23:03 AM
Drag,

Have you removed the precup that goes into  the head before the injector?  Sounbds like you might have coked that up really good and plugged the four holes. Once it is removed you will see the top ofthe piston f it is anything like my 175.   If you have pressure leak through the head gasket then obviously the head has to come off but that is not a hard job.  Good luck with it.  I don`t think you have hurt your engine.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 26, 2007, 02:45:35 AM
What a day this has been. After my last post I couldn't stand it and had to find out what happened. First the oil level. Seems like the dipstick has two different positions. One is if you just push it in normally and a deeper one if you push harder. I don't think I have an oil problem. Next is what sounded like a blown head gasket. Nope, I installed a new muffler and new exhaust adapter and broke the gasket installing it and it blew out a chunk. Fuel starvation! Found out the fuel flow from the tank is enough to bleed the air out but not enough to run the engine. Found the small shutoff valve on the tank had a chunk of rust blocking about 75% of the hole. The inside of the tank is full of rust on the bottom of one end. looks like it had water sitting in it at one time. I'm surprised it ran as good as it has. Anyway, hooked up a temp fuel tank, installed a new exhaust gasket and verified the oil level. Started the engine and she purrs like a kitten on steroids! 1800rpm 3.5 kw no problem, then another 3.5 kw for a total of 7 kw, no problem. 1200 rpm 3.5 kw, no problem. I'm happy once again. Now where did I put that sign that says kick me? 
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on February 26, 2007, 02:52:36 AM
Thats great news!
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 27, 2007, 01:49:16 AM
Installed 2ea.  25 gallon Pryco day tanks today. One for diesel and the other for waste motor oil. Each tank has a 2 micron Cat fuel filter. I'm looking for a couple of Racor filters to install also. Hope to have the hopper adapter plate installed in a few days along with a 10 gallon surge tank and two Cat 988 hydraulic oil coolers as radiators. The coolant will be circulated by a Grundfos pump. The coolers are aluminum and 24" x 18" x 2" thick. I used one of these as a temp radiator on a 4.7L Jeep. Two should be more than enough for a 195. I'm going to put a 195 degree thermostat in the plate adapter. My 10' x 12' generator building is getting crowded and I haven't even installed the battery bank yet.   
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on February 27, 2007, 02:38:12 AM
Drag,

Anything you can do, like installing a partition wall between the sources of heat (engines) and the battery bank will help with prolonging the service life of your valuable batteries.  Research of battery articles on the subject will show that even moderate temperature increases like ten degrees above room temperature will take a significant toll in terms of reduced lifetime.  They like to be kept cool.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: mobile_bob on February 27, 2007, 03:01:27 AM
Dragonof:

before you buy batteries let me know, i can hook you up with a supplier of rolls/surrette with damn good priceing down in Kent.

if you need any help or info on batteries, charging regimes etc... let me know i have a ton of info

bob g
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: Doug on February 27, 2007, 03:51:27 AM
This whole Turbo thing is making me think again....

Since this was kind of an option I left the door open for when I started making my intake manifold and looked at alternative crank case venting...

So I have a turbo from a small 3 cylinder Kubota 410 loader ( realy tiny thing like 1.2 litreor something ). How much oil would something like this require? Gus was special ordered with a gear type oil pump just incase.....

It even has a tiny banjo fitting on top and return on bottom so it would be a snap to adapt. Also want slow Gus to around 1200-1300 rpm but try and drive a 7 or 8 kva head.

Now that I have hyjacked a thread sorry in advance....

Doug
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 27, 2007, 04:03:25 AM
Well I appreciate the offer. I'm still not sure what small inverter I'm going to purchase yet so I'll let you know when i figure that out. Since the 195 is not autostart I am going to run a dedicated circuit for some basic lights etc. so the wife won't have to sit in the dark waiting for me to start the generator.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 27, 2007, 04:36:49 AM
Mobile Bob

Do you know what the oil pressure is on your Changfa? I don't have an adapter yet so I can't install a gauge. Or do you have a source for an adapter? Final question is does Utterpower have a shop where I could just stop by sometime or does George only do business on line? I have probably driven by Georges place many times without knowing it since I do a lot of work in Kent.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: mobile_bob on February 27, 2007, 03:48:03 PM
there are reports of up to 300psi using 30 weight oil when the engine is cold,,,i have no idea why so high

contact george  at    george@utterpower.com  i am sure he will be quite helpful, sometimes he is out of the shop, but he
responds to his emails,, if not just send him another sometimes the spam filter will catch a new email.

bob g
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on February 28, 2007, 02:08:10 AM
Sounds like some of the Cummins engines I've seen. I sent George an e-mail.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: mactoollover2005 on March 01, 2007, 03:35:34 AM
Well i cant say i have seen 300 psi before with oiling systems i have seen 95-105 psi with 15w40 in the winter. it would start off with no or very little oil pressure for about 30-60 secs until the heavy oil was forced thru the system then watch the oil press guage climb to 100pis until the eng and oil warmed up.

Derek
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on March 01, 2007, 04:52:49 AM
I've ordered an adapter from Utterpower and hopefully will pick it up tomorrow so I can do some checking on the oil pressure. If it is 300psi (I hope it is) I intend to use a very small amount of the supply ( with a restriction orifice)to run through an oil filter and then enough to lube the turbo (again with another restriction orifice as advised by George at Utterpower) . The turbo would be a real hoot to run but an oil filter would just make good sense so it will be the primary goal. If, that is, the oil pump has enough volume at normal operating temperature to keep from starving the rest of the engine. Should be fun!

John
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: Doug on March 01, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
I've never sen the inside of the ChangFa, but the Petteroid has no provision for an oil presure releif....

Probably the same cause and effect....

Doug
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on March 01, 2007, 10:14:29 PM
I've never sen the inside of the ChangFa, but the Petteroid has no provision for an oil presure releif....

Probably the same cause and effect....

Doug

My real Petter has a regulator associated with the external spin on oil filter housing.  I guess it sends excess back to the sump.  Pressure is maintained at 40 PSI at all times, even when cold.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: Doug on March 01, 2007, 10:46:47 PM
I need to see inside of the PHW1 that one of my co-workers bought at a farm Auction. You never know what the Indians changed....

I been thinking that may be something Gus will need for winter....

Doug
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on March 03, 2007, 02:36:55 AM
Picked up the custom banjo bolt oil pressure adapter form George today. The man does nice work, good fair price also. Nice job on the adapter George. Got home, installed it. Hooked up a brand new Ashcroft 0-300psi gauge (accuracy verified on a dead weight tester at work). Got the following results. Cold engine at 35 degrees. 1800 rpm 95psi, 1200 rpm 90psi. After running for 45 minutes water temp was 205 with engine at 1800 rpm oil pressure at 75psi, at 1200 rpm oil pressure at 65psi. After running an additional 1 hour the oil temperature has stabilized at 145 degrees with the coolant temp at 200 degrees. The oil pressure at 1800rpm was 60psi and at 1200rpm the oil pressure was at 51psi. This acts like it has a relief valve? You can watch the pressure gauge as the engine is coasting to a stop and the pressure hangs in there until what looks like about <50rpm then falls off rapidly. I'm going to do a 5-6 hour run tomorrow and will try to do a flow rate test if I have time. I think with the pressure I see the turbo would survive if I can maintain pressure and flow to the rocker arm end. I really want to know the GPM before I take that leap into the unknown. Part of my test equipment includes an ultrasonic transducer that clamps onto the line being tested and gives a digital readout in GPM. I've never tried it on such a small line though. This is fun!
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on March 04, 2007, 04:04:29 AM
Well, did a 3 hour run today with the new cooling system. Need to get a different thermostat, 175 degrees doesn't get it. I want to see at least 205 degrees. Tried to do a flow rate test on the oil pressure tap from the rocker box and sadly my test equipment will not detect the flow rate with the cold oil. Once the engine was up to 175 it just barely read <1pint per minute. The oil line is very small and the I.D. looks about 1/16". In don't think the turbo can survive at that rate. For now I will set that project to the side and install a bypass oil filter and a low oil pressure and high water temp shutdown. I'll go back to the turbo after all the safeties are finished. I will probably run an electric external oil pump on the turbo so that I don't sacrifice the engine and that will allow me to see how the engine reacts with a couple of lbs of boost at 1200 rpm.  Hopefully it will allow the engine to make a few more HP at the lower rpm without smoking.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: Doug on March 07, 2007, 01:46:51 AM
How much oil do yo need to lube a turbo?

I have this little turbo off a Kub and its easy to tap off the oil gallery. How much oil presure fo you think I need to lube a brass bushed Petter.

Doug
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on March 07, 2007, 03:05:11 AM
Well that's my problem. I don't want to starve the engine of oil and don't want to smoke the turbo either. Turbo's bearings are kept cool by the oil. Not enough oil and failure. That's why I am going to run an external oil system for the turbo just for testing. Hopefully I will be able to determine how much pressure and flow it needs to survive. Last thing I want to do is cook my engine trying to use a turbo that it really doesn't need.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: Doug on March 07, 2007, 04:15:31 AM
Can't be much oil....

Looks like a 10 mm banjo feed it oil.

So after we go turbo then what?

Race?

Doug
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: dieselhead on March 07, 2007, 05:41:35 AM
Hi rcavictim,

Could you let us know how you setup your injector line heater & where we can buy the parts ?

                        Thanks , Jeff in Colorado


Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: draganof on March 07, 2007, 11:22:52 AM
Race? Why not, first person to produce the most kw at the slowest speed with the least amount of smoke. Of course the race fuel would have to be unheated tar. LOL
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: rcavictim on March 07, 2007, 04:05:53 PM
Hi rcavictim,

Could you let us know how you setup your injector line heater & where we can buy the parts ?

                        Thanks , Jeff in Colorado




Jeff,

I took about a foot of heavy resistance wire, nichrome or similar alloy, off a ceramic motor starting resistor from an ancient inductrial motor controller.  This wire is about as thick as a heavy coat hanger wire, maybe #12 AWG equivalent.  At about 3 VAC applied and some 40 amperes it gets a dull red, making about 120 watts of heat.   I have put this in a sleeve of ceramic beads and wrapped it about 3 turns around the injector body between the engine head and the side input fuel  port on the injector.  The last couple of inches comes out wrapped around the fuel line port.  The injector had to be removed from the head to wrap the heater around it. In the process of pushing it back into the head betweeen the two mounting studs, many of my ceramic beads got broken as there was juat not enough clearance (beads too large OD).  I patched the thing with some stove cement so as to keep the resistance wire from touching any metal and shorting out.  I run a short length of #10 insulated wire to a step down transformer that was rated at about 5 volts at 50 amps.  The 120 volt primary is operated through a variac from the output of the genset iteslf.  Once started on diesel i can turn up heat to the injector and after about 10 inutes the motor and injector is warm enough to switch to syrup fuel.

With a IR thermometer I have measured the temperature of the injector body to be about 400F when adjusted for good performance on thick fuel oil while the engine head temperature adjacent to the injector is about 220F.

When I made this heater the first time I started with six parallel strands of nichrome salvaged from an electric heater, all straightened out and pulled through the beads.  I had a fuel oil leak that dripped oil on the heater and it caused the nichrome wires to burn open at that spot.  The first heater failed in about 5 hours.  The new heavy one has run without a problem for many hourrs with the leak fixed and  no liquids dripping on it.

I don`t bother heating the IP or HP fuel line which on my JD175 is only about 6- 7 inches long.  They get enough conducted and radiant heat from the engine when it is at operating temperature.  It is however necessary to heat the fuel line from the thick viscosity oil supply to the  injector pump.
Title: Re: 1200 rpm Changfa 195
Post by: SCOTT on March 07, 2007, 04:36:31 PM
Jeff
Go to Mcmaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ page 487 and take a look at their “super high temp heat rope” I have used this and it works great. You don’t need a thermal switch like the one in the picture;

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10064&pos=0

  a simple dimmer will allow you to fine tune the wattage and thus heat output.  Wrap the line and the heater in ceramic insulation (also avaliable at Mcmaster) and you are all set

Scott