Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: unimogr on October 27, 2006, 01:08:35 AM

Title: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on October 27, 2006, 01:08:35 AM

Anyone out there have any knowledge of HR3 engines?  I can probably get one pretty cheap and it comes with PTO on the flywheel side and maybe a clutch. 

I did some searching and found the power graphs here:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/R1060E/R1060E05.htm

Looks like I could run the engine around 1500 RPM to get the lowest amount of fuel consumption and the most torque and still be able to drive a 20KW head.

I know it won't be as quite and probably not as long lived as a CS but I can probably get it for $100, so I can over look a lot for that kind of money.

If anyone has some input on burning WVO in these engines I'd love to hear it too since that would likely be my primary fuel for this engine.

Thanks,

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: Doug on October 27, 2006, 02:36:18 AM
FAO is there nothng they can't study and answere?

Great source of techinical info.....
$100 how can you loose?

Doug
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on October 27, 2006, 03:29:09 AM

Doug.

I haven't seen the engine yet, but I've been told it's not a small lump of metal.  The biggest thing I'm worried about is that I drag it home and find out it's not the right engine for my job and I have a big and ugly lawn ornament, but it's not like I don't have one already:

http://kurz.unimog.ca

My nightmare starts at the bottom.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: Doug on October 27, 2006, 04:18:20 AM
The scrap man collects if you decide to walk away.....

I'm not one to toss money to the wind, but I knew my Petteroid might be a dud for a hell of a lot more than 100 bucks. A real Lister HR3 looks like this

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3816343

Yes its big, but they don't drop out of trees. Most people wouldn't buy one but then we aren't most people are we?

Doug
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on October 27, 2006, 11:13:21 AM
For $100 you'd get your money back in spare parts sales if nothing else.

The air-cooled Listers run hotter than the water-cooled engines, so more suitable for Vegetable Oil running if anything.

Go for it!

Peter
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: dkwflight on October 28, 2006, 12:34:06 AM
Hi I personally don't have any experience with the HR-3

I did however have some experience with an air-cooled two stroke.
There are head temp gages availabe for these engines.
The thermocouple has a ring that could be placed under a head bolt.
Handy to track temps.

My air cooled lawn mowers are run wide open all the time. to keep the air flow up and the temps down.
I question running the HR-3 at a slow speed. especialy at full load.
Dennis
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on October 28, 2006, 05:01:11 AM

Thanks for the info Peter, good to know that they run hotter, I would think it may help reduce carbon buildup.  The biggest short coming I can see is that there is no coolant to help preheat the WVO, maybe there is an oil cooler I can tap into or maybe it's possible to suck enough heat out of the exhaust to make it flow on a cold Canadian morning.

Dennis, the temp gauge is a good idea.  I have a Holder tractor with an air cooled MWM diesel and it has a similar setup.  1500 RPM seems to be the sweet spot for torque and fuel consumption, but 1800 would mean I could directly drive the head and I'm only 400 RPM under the governors limit plus the torque doesn't drop off that quickly and the fuel consumption only goes up a bit.

I'll have to try to get up to my friends place and see if it will start or not.  If she runs I'll find a way to drag her home and make her do some work for me.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: Elk County Dutch on October 28, 2006, 08:56:24 AM
Hi Jason,  A couple/three  of weeks ago I got 3 HR2s, One that is complete and another that has some parts to be reassembled and one that is parts only. The ID plates on them state thheir respective horsepower and rpm setting. Also got the Instruction book, Parts list book , Operators hand book and Workshop manual in the deal. From page 36 and 37 of the Instruction book, it tells about the governor and how to change speed of a engine fitted with a constant speed governor. the governor weights and springs are different for different speeds. Likewise the Gov weights vary for the varible speed set up, but not by much. It looks to be a fairly simple job to change out weights and/or springs to get your desired rpms.       As far as longevity, the former owner said they would run somewhere between 12,000 and 18,000 hours before needing overhauled. These engines all came out of the oil patch,(read all kinds of weather conditions and no shelter from anything). Still, that's quite a while. Gary Jones at  www.diesel-electric.us has parts and service. His shipping is very fast too.  Best of luck to you!  Gene
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on October 28, 2006, 10:45:50 AM

Thanks for the info Peter, good to know that they run hotter, I would think it may help reduce carbon buildup.  The biggest short coming I can see is that there is no coolant to help preheat the WVO, maybe there is an oil cooler I can tap into or maybe it's possible to suck enough heat out of the exhaust to make it flow on a cold Canadian morning.

Dennis, the temp gauge is a good idea.  I have a Holder tractor with an air cooled MWM diesel and it has a similar setup.  1500 RPM seems to be the sweet spot for torque and fuel consumption, but 1800 would mean I could directly drive the head and I'm only 400 RPM under the governors limit plus the torque doesn't drop off that quickly and the fuel consumption only goes up a bit.

I'll have to try to get up to my friends place and see if it will start or not.  If she runs I'll find a way to drag her home and make her do some work for me.

Jason

I'm pretty sure that the HR/SR engines will run to 2500rpm continuous maximum rpm if you need it.

Peter
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on October 28, 2006, 02:59:33 PM
Gene, I looked over the website and I can't believe how cheaply you can rebuild one of these engines!!  I'm used to Mercedes diesels and they are not cheap to rebuild, pistons alone will set you back a couple thousand dollars, but that's OEM parts too, I don't know if diesel-electric.com is selling OEM or not.

Peter, the engine tag says BS649 and I used that number to find the link above.  The info on that page seems to indicate that this model stops at 2200.  In the Mercedes industrial diesel line there are probably hundreds of variations in a single engine.  I know that the OM352 (5.7 litre direct injection diesel) went from about 60 hp to 300 hp and had just about every torque and fuel curve you could imagine.  I would guess Listers maybe similar?

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on October 28, 2006, 03:35:45 PM
Peter, the engine tag says BS649 and I used that number to find the link above.  The info on that page seems to indicate that this model stops at 2200.  In the Mercedes industrial diesel line there are probably hundreds of variations in a single engine.  I know that the OM352 (5.7 litre direct injection diesel) went from about 60 hp to 300 hp and had just about every torque and fuel curve you could imagine.  I would guess Listers maybe similar?

Jason

BS649 is a standard that engine builders such as Lister used to show that their quoted bhp figures were consistent, and the engines were tested to a known level of amient temperature, fuel quality, accessory level etc etc.

I haven't got an HR3 book to hand, but the following figures from the SR3 might illustrate the point:

Max gross bhp:   28.2

Rated CONTINUOUS bhp to BS649:1958

23.25 @ 2500
19.50 @ 2000
18.00 @ 1800
15.00 @ 1500
12.00 @ 1200
9.00   @ 1000

The engine is rated at the above, plus they will deliver 10% higher power (overload) for one hour in twelve consecutive running.

The BS649:1958 standard will include all cooling fans, dynamos/alternators etc., but the main point I was trying to make was that the max rpm is probably higher than the 2200rpm you are looking at.

The guy in Alaska has been in touch with me in the past re spares, but he has only air-cooled parts available, not surpising seeing his location!

Peter
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on November 21, 2006, 04:33:25 PM
Finally hauled the engine home on the weekend, turns out it's an SR3.

The engine rolls over, appears to be complete and was sealed up when it came out of service.

Here are some pictures:

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister1.jpg

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister2.jpg

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister3.jpg

One thing I am unsure of is the fuel control.  I suspect the control in picture 3 with the adjustable screws is the throttle and the long one is shutdown, but can anyone confirm this?  It's nice to know what everything does before you put the fuel to it.

The engine data plate didn't come through, but it appears the engine was sold as a knockdown kit to a company in Toronto who put in into some piece of machinery.

It's a nice day today so I might try to sneak out in the afternoon and poke around a little more.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: MeanListerGreen on November 21, 2006, 06:21:35 PM
I saw one of those that was rebuilt to spec sell for 4500.00
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on November 21, 2006, 09:33:55 PM
Finally hauled the engine home on the weekend, turns out it's an SR3.

The engine rolls over, appears to be complete and was sealed up when it came out of service.

Here are some pictures:

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister1.jpg

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister2.jpg

http://images.unimog.ca/lister/lister3.jpg

One thing I am unsure of is the fuel control.  I suspect the control in picture 3 with the adjustable screws is the throttle and the long one is shutdown, but can anyone confirm this?  It's nice to know what everything does before you put the fuel to it.

The engine data plate didn't come through, but it appears the engine was sold as a knockdown kit to a company in Toronto who put in into some piece of machinery.

It's a nice day today so I might try to sneak out in the afternoon and poke around a little more.

Jason

The control plate has a 'STOP' engraved on the lower half with an arrow pointing left as you look at it.

There are three positions, the small lever (you may have something else if a remote throttle was used) is vertical and against the left-hand stop anti-clockwise, this is the starting position. Once started the lever is rotated clockwise until it is horizontal and against the right-hand stop.

To shut down, the lever is further rotated clockwise and held there until the engine stops.

I'll try and get a scan of that on our website tonight, I am just updating the company website so the 'graphics' PC is running.

Lots of SR books on abebooks.com at the weekend.

Peter

 
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on November 21, 2006, 09:46:18 PM
Image now up:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerStart.jpg

This arrangement is pretty standard for nearly all the air-cooled engines.

Peter
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on November 22, 2006, 01:24:00 AM
Thanks for the info Peter.

I had some time this afternoon to look at the engine some more.  I pulled the valve and the side injection pump covers and everything is nice and clean inside.  It looks like the engine may have been rebuild at least once already, looks like someone was using RTV sealer, I doubt the factory would use this stuff.

I checked the engines throttle control again and the long lever on the right does turn clockwise but only has two position, so I'm guessing it's run and stop.

The starter was not working so I pulled it off and cleaned things up inside.  I should have more time on the weekend so I'll put the start back on, prime it up and see if she'll run.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: dieselgman on November 22, 2006, 04:43:11 AM
The Lister HR series is a very solid engine that has a distribution around the world second to none except for the CS series that has been widely copied. Do not assume that SR data will give you any true understanding of the HR, they are substantially different machines. I do have full technical data for the HR and can forward what you are interested in. The HR has been experimented with in the Pacific Islands using copra oils, it is a direct injection engine and may have some problems with excessive carbon build-up when burning alternative fuels. You can get extra heavy duty parts for this machine for extreme service and 30,000 hours is not an unheard of run-time. The HR as commonly used in the oil patch will have a variable speed governor rather than a fixed speed type. They are specified to run from 900 rpm to 2500 rpm. I personally prefer the more modern housed flywheel like the HR models because you can easily get adapters for a variety of SAE housings to fit most equipment such as clutches and other direct drives. I have a large parts depot in central Kansas well stocked for these engines.

Gary
diesel-electric.us
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on November 22, 2006, 04:46:30 AM
The Lister HR series is a very solid engine that has a distribution around the world second to none except for the CS series that has been widely copied. Do not assume that SR data will give you any true understanding of the HR, they are substantially different machines. I do have full technical data for the HR and can forward what you are interested in. The HR has been experimented with in the Pacific Islands using copra oils, it is a direct injection engine and may have some problems with excessive carbon build-up when burning alternative fuels. You can get extra heavy duty parts for this machine for extreme service and 30,000 hours is not an unheard of run-time. The HR as commonly used in the oil patch will have a variable speed governor rather than a fixed speed type. They are specified to run from 900 rpm to 2500 rpm. I personally prefer the more modern housed flywheel like the HR models because you can easily get adapters for a variety of SAE housings to fit most equipment such as clutches and other direct drives. I have a large parts depot in central Kansas well stocked for these engines.

Gary
diesel-electric.us

It turned out to be an SR3, Gary, not an HR3 as the original post.

Peter

Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: dieselgman on November 22, 2006, 04:56:29 AM
I also have excellent parts coverage for the SR series including forgings & castings. It appears that the tips offered for this model all seem to be correct. I will be very interested in seeing if the SR can handle burning WVO or other non petroleum fuels. The valves and ports are quite small on this model though, and might present some immediate problems with carbon build-up. I would guess that running the machine at maximum loads/temperatures will help as it does in burning conventional fuels. There is also a variable speed governor set-up available for this model or you could fabricate your own.

Gary
diesel-electric.us
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on November 22, 2006, 06:24:27 PM
Thanks for your input Gary.

If you have any technical details that you can forward to me about the SR3 please do, my e-mail address is jason@unimog.ca.

On the parts side, is there a PTO shaft for the flywheel side?  If this engine is any good my plan is to couple it to an ST head directly and run it at 1800 RPM.

On the engine data plate I can see the engine was set to run at 1800 RPM, but someone X'd over it and the HP rating.  Not sure what this means but I am hoping that the governor wasn't changed or tampered with so that they could get more speed out of it.

I'm going to pickup some fuel line for it this weekend and see if it's going to run or not.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: dieselgman on November 23, 2006, 08:28:51 AM
Yes, there are many applications using a direct-drive shaft extension that bolts directly to the flywheel. Some marine applications I've seen also have a gear-reduction drive installed. In my experience, the Twin-Disc clutch is a nice way to couple the engine to its load and these are very common around the oil-patch. There are standard SAE adapters to fit the Lister fan housing for close-coupled applications so the clutch need not come originally from a Lister engine.

Gary
diesel-electric.us
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on November 26, 2006, 01:33:00 AM

I put a battery on it last weekend to see if it would turn over, but no luck.  So I pull it off and open it up, water got into it the armature so I cleaned everything up and put it back together, now it turns over when I put power to it.

I hooked up the fuel line and tried to purge the air out but I might be doing something wrong.  The hand pump doesn't have a lot of resistance but I cracked the inlet line on the fuel filter and I was able to pump fuel out of it.  I cracked a plug on one of the discharge ports on the filter housing and pumped like mad, but all I got was an slight dribble and bubbles.  I tightened the plug down and continued to pump, but nothing came out of the bleeder port.

After nearly wearing out my thumb I cranked the engine over and I was getting a little bit of smoke, but only a wisp.

Can anyone give me a rough idea how much pumping would be needed to purge the air out of the filter? 

I'm wondering if I have a weak supply pump that can't build enough pressure to overcome the bleeder valve thus making it impossible to purge the air, or I could just be doing it wrong.  All my knowledge is with Mercedes diesels and they are a very different beast compared to this Lister.

Thanks,

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: listerdiesel on November 27, 2006, 07:43:36 AM

I put a battery on it last weekend to see if it would turn over, but no luck.  So I pull it off and open it up, water got into it the armature so I cleaned everything up and put it back together, now it turns over when I put power to it.

I hooked up the fuel line and tried to purge the air out but I might be doing something wrong.  The hand pump doesn't have a lot of resistance but I cracked the inlet line on the fuel filter and I was able to pump fuel out of it.  I cracked a plug on one of the discharge ports on the filter housing and pumped like mad, but all I got was an slight dribble and bubbles.  I tightened the plug down and continued to pump, but nothing came out of the bleeder port.

After nearly wearing out my thumb I cranked the engine over and I was getting a little bit of smoke, but only a wisp.

Can anyone give me a rough idea how much pumping would be needed to purge the air out of the filter? 

I'm wondering if I have a weak supply pump that can't build enough pressure to overcome the bleeder valve thus making it impossible to purge the air, or I could just be doing it wrong.  All my knowledge is with Mercedes diesels and they are a very different beast compared to this Lister.

Thanks,

Jason

Starting from the filter, has that been cleaned/filter been changed?

If the fuel lift pump is a bit tired or has a leaky non-return valve, you could have problems.

The bleed valves on the pumps are simple open/shut things, they are not spring loaded, so open them a couple of turns and see what you get out.

At the worst, rig a gravity fuel tank and try again, you don't need to include the lift pump if the head of fuel is about 2 feet or more.

A decent lift pump will squirt fuel out of the bleeders pretty smartly and should have a fair bit of resistance.

Peter
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: unimogr on November 28, 2006, 02:19:27 AM
The bleed valves on the pumps are simple open/shut things, they are not spring loaded, so open them a couple of turns and see what you get out.

At the worst, rig a gravity fuel tank and try again, you don't need to include the lift pump if the head of fuel is about 2 feet or more.

A decent lift pump will squirt fuel out of the bleeders pretty smartly and should have a fair bit of resistance.


Thanks for you help again Peter.

I had a little free time on Sunday so I tried again.  I cracked the bolt on the filter outlet that feeds the injectors and lots of fuel came out when I pumped and there seemed to be no bubbles.

I cranked the engine over and all I got was smoke.  It was 15C outside so if the engine was any good it should have fired, I also noticed that a small puff of smoke came out the intake manifold while cranking.  I found if I decompressed #2 and 3 the smoke came out but as soon as I decompressed #1 it was a lot less.  I'm thinking the engine has internal issues and I'll have to pull the heads off in the spring for a closer look.

Jason
Title: Re: Lister HR3
Post by: dieselgman on November 28, 2006, 06:06:06 AM
Does your unit have cold start cups/plungers installed? If so, then injecting a couple tablespoons of engine oil here will lube the top cylinders and bring up the compression allowing for better starting of a cold engine. One other method I've used for starting derelict engines is to inject a spray of WD40 into the intake port during cranking. Never use starting fluids or ether in these engines, but WD40 will start and run an otherwise balking engine and allow you to diagnose other problems without a teardown. The WD40 is also good for loosening stuck rings and getting the upper cylinders lubricated. These engines will sometimes stick the valves in their guides especially after sitting long, so you also will want to pull the valve covers and check the valve travel on each one and be sure they are not hitting the pistons due to carbon build-up. This approach may reduce the amount of initial work you have to do to determine your actual engine condition. If you can make the unit run and pull a load you can also decarbonize it to a great extent via water mist injection into the intake port while the engine is at full operating temperature. Steam is a pretty effective cleaning agent. This will not help much with sticky valves though. Hope this is helpful, good luck with your engine!

Gary
Diesel-electric.us