Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Lister Based Generators => Topic started by: Doug on January 08, 2006, 02:38:47 AM

Title: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Doug on January 08, 2006, 02:38:47 AM
Hello fellow Listers!

I had a thought, I used to service cranes over at the Dana brake parts plant here and town and always noticed there was usualy some Iron left after a run. Has anyone ever investigated the possibility to have "Better" fly wheels cast?
Now I don't own a sationary yet but I this might solve a lot of peoples trouble. Also, having looked down on the process from time to time from up above I think a fly wheel might be the easiest part to have cast.

Doug
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Doug on January 08, 2006, 03:31:58 AM
Hey look I'm talking to myslef lol

Found this

Offer Description Offering petter crank case 3.5 hp to 25 hp and petter cylinder block 3.5 hp to 25 hp.
 
COMPANY DETAILS
Company Name b. R. Technocast 
Contact Person Mr. Kirit Patel (Partner)
Address Plot No. C - 1, 202/3, N Road , Aji Vasahat, Gidc , Rajkot , Gujarat , India -360 003 
Phone 91-281-2389182
Fax 91-281-2389182 
Profile Manufacturer of industrial castings, gray iron casting, ci casting, decorative castings, gray iron decorative casting, graded ci casting, pig iron castings, decorative iron casting, automotive iron castings and engineering casting.

Seems that the parts manufactures are as eager to sell to us as the motor builders.
Hmmm....
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: quinnf on January 08, 2006, 03:45:32 AM
Doug,

It's not talking to yourself unless you use different voices.  Had a boss that did that a long time ago.  Weirded everyone out so much when she started that, they'd get up and quietly close their office doors. 

Re: casting flywheels, that's a REAL project.  Too bad you can't just make one out of fiberglass and carbon fiber filled with lead shot or depleted uranium.  That's more my speed.

Quinn
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Stan on January 08, 2006, 03:51:16 AM
Doug...Kirit Patel must be related to Atul Patel.....they are the Anand Enterprises people who produce the Powerline machines with all the upgrades for the N. American market. Ive asked them so many questions they sent me a Christmas card  ;D  I believe I've read somewhere they supply george and the people at listeroid but I could be mistaken.
stan
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on January 08, 2006, 03:58:57 AM
I'm just curious here;
We have air pack bottles at work that are Kevlar wrapped for light weight strength.
I was wondering if the set of flywheels (that we are talking about but will not name) were tightly wrapped in Kevlar (or carbon fiber etc) with the apprpriate epoxy matrix, would it be rendered safe?
How would one calculate?  How much does cast iron expand before 'She's a-gona blow Cap'n!!'
???
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: cujet on January 08, 2006, 04:19:15 AM
There is no question that a rotating part can be wrapped in Kevlar for safety. However you will not be able to expand the operating envelope of the part. In other words, the Kevlar will not strengthen the part to the point that it will withstand extra stress.

Chris
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on January 08, 2006, 05:45:38 AM
That's what I was wondering, plus you would always wonder how the wrapper was holding up over time and exposure.
I was also thinking of a shrunk on steel band, like a starter ring gear or a railroad wheel / tire?
Best to order a set of 20" flywheels from a ? reputable ? source in India?
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Doug on January 08, 2006, 10:10:17 PM
I may go over there on day and ask if the would do a small run of fly wheels. I don't think they would be that hard to sell...

Doug
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Stan on January 09, 2006, 12:58:21 AM
I can just see it one day.   Chromed 24" flywheels with little blinking blue lights all around them with spinners going in the opposite direction.  ;D
Stan
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Doug on January 09, 2006, 01:27:57 AM
Don't forget the "Club" lest someone leave your Lister on blocks and run off withthe fly wheels lol!!!
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: rocket on January 09, 2006, 04:05:58 AM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha :D rofl
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: oldnslow on February 09, 2006, 05:24:00 PM
The GM 90's are made by http://www.satyajeet.com/de2.htm I remember in one of the threads i read here they were making custom flywheels for a dealer. Perhaps they could probably quote you via email on the "extra heavy" ones you are thinking about making here? just a thought.
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Procrustes on February 10, 2006, 05:32:28 AM
The GM 90's are made by http://www.satyajeet.com/de2.htm I remember in one of the threads i read here they were making custom flywheels for a dealer. Perhaps they could probably quote you via email on the "extra heavy" ones you are thinking about making here? just a thought.

Yeah, I remember that too.  Somewhere else that same dealer mentioned that the flywheels mill better because their iron is consistent.  Is there some concern about the crankshaft breaking?  Satyajeet will likely fill an order.  There is the usual caveat that freight is relatively more expensive for less than a container.
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: oldnslow on February 10, 2006, 07:33:33 PM
Well, the dealer would probably quote you on the flywheels.  Perhaps back them up as well. How much more weight than a regular flywheel are we talking? Is it a spoked or a stover type? These are some options as far as I can tell (and you probably already thought of this too):
Contact Sensitive Industries directly or
Call Mike Montieth (GM90)
Call George B. see if he can get custom ones.
There are other dealers that may help. Here is an off-the-wall suggestion, because I am a lunatic at heart: Look up "Lindsay's Technical Books" on the web. They have plans to make a "charcoal foundry" that works good. I made one years ago. You could sand-cast your own flywheels and a few extra. Not that technical of a thing to cast, if you study it a little.... ;D
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: sid on February 10, 2006, 08:48:34 PM
just got thru checking my listers spec. sheet // about the only difference between the 6 and the 8 hp is the weight of the flywheels/ my 8 has a little heavier flywheels. the bore and strok are the same/ the speed is a little greater on the 8 but it appears that the only difference is heavier flywheels.. I had the opportunity this week of visiting a friend and fellow engine collector/his count is 180 engines ++  and 10 tractors/++/ he has a gm 90--6 hp mounted on a 1000lb block// it shuck the block// I can run my 8 on a trailer// so i guss the weight of the flywhels do make a difference//I have seen some impressive engine collection but this one would be hard to beat/most of these were not your every day common antique engine but a large collection of very good and rare pieces of machinery// it did not stop at engines and tractors.. it included almost everything/he has been putting this together for at least 30 years. I doubt that it could be dublicated now// sid
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on February 11, 2006, 03:27:45 AM
At what point do the flywheels  become too heavy, and wear the main bearings, or put excessive bending moments on the crankshaft?
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: quinnf on February 12, 2006, 12:55:09 AM
Scott,

That's a good question.  By means of an answer, look at the size of the TRBs on your 'roid, and then recall the size of the TRBs that they used to put on the front end of whatever species of Detroit Iron you may have driven in days of yore.  They were much smaller, yet each one supported 1/4 of the weight of the car with enough safety margin to handle all the live loads encountered from potholes, turns, curbs, etc.  Then consider how long those bearings lasted.  I don't think I ever had to replace a set of front end wheel bearings except when I tightened them too much once...ONCE!

But then again, you have a twin, so there are two power strokes 180 degrees apart, so your flicker shouldn't be as bad as that of a single. 

Quinn
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Mr Lister on February 12, 2006, 06:40:15 PM
Guys,

There are 2 aspects to a "better" flywheel:

1.  Cast from steel so that it won't go bang at somewhere between 651rpm and 1000rpm

2.  Cast in a similar pattern to the Start-o-matic flywheels so the extra inertia makes starting loads easier and helps to reduce speed variations and flicker - ie a better generator flywheel.

One thing I learnt this weekend is that the original SOM even had an additional flywheel on the alternator pulley to increase the 1500 rpm rotating mass. This was apparently to assist the alternator in meeting the additional load, without putting extra strain on the drive belts.

My friend Paul, and also Guy Fawkes on this forum have the SOM machines. Perhaps they could measure up the flywheel to get the size, cross section and mass?

I agree with Guy Fawkes that the starter-alternator was an inspired bit of design from the 1950s, and perhaps it could be re-designed for low cost manufacture in China. I am sure that if you contacted some of the Chinese ST suppliers  - particularly those making the combined alternator/ welding generator, that they would consider making a special.  Those guys will make anything if they think there is a market for it!

I also think that there would be scope to built a direct drive starter-alternator into the flywheel.  Otherpower.com has led the way in this with their brushless PM wind generators.   An 18" diameter generator would fit nicely in the recess of the flywheel and make a very compact machine. You could fit same alternator to both sides of a twin.


Ken
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: GuyFawkes on February 12, 2006, 06:54:15 PM
Start o matic main flywheels were a shade under 300 lbs each

main flywheel is (approx) 25" dia, 4" wide at the rim, 3" deep rim, 1" thick plate instead of spokes

alternator had a 14" flywheel, approx 3" thick.

Can't get copprmine on this site to work, so uploading some images and a crappy 640 x 480 video of her starting to http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/ in about ten minutes.

have phun
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: Mr Lister on February 12, 2006, 07:29:37 PM
Guy Fawkes,

Thanks for the dimensions and the photos!  I can now work out the kinetic energy at 650 rpm.

I see you bought the "red one"  that was briefly on ebay UK last week. 

Looks like you good a good deal/haul - complete with trolley and coolant tank.

Nice colour - Some of "our mutual friends" on a well know UK stat. eng. forum will be squealing


Best of Luck,



Ken
 
Title: Re: Making Better Fly wheels
Post by: GuyFawkes on February 12, 2006, 07:43:13 PM
Guy Fawkes,

Thanks for the dimensions and the photos!  I can now work out the kinetic energy at 650 rpm.

I see you bought the "red one"  that was briefly on ebay UK last week. 

Aye, 300 squid.. >;^)


Quote
Looks like you good a good deal/haul - complete with trolley and coolant tank.

the trolley is an aboniation, as is the coolant tank

Quote
Nice colour - Some of "our mutual friends" on a well know UK stat. eng. forum will be squealing

Best of Luck,

Ken
 

LMAO, yeah, bunch of bloody snobs...